I haven't read all the comments yet, so please forgive any redundancy, but a few points to add.
Theodore Sizer and others have pointed out that public education was largely built to prepare students for labor while keeping them out of the labor force. To some extent, the idea of child care with preparation to be corporate drones hasn't changed a great deal over the years (this is partly what that principal is talking about). The revolt that you feel against public education is largely the revolt that I've felt against pivoting to industry after leaving higher ed. I don't want to be convincing myself all day every day to do things I actually hate and then brightsiding that as productivity or growth. No way.
You mention the generosity of underpaid teachers. The golden age of public education relied quite heavily on extremely competent women during a time when they could not -- for arbitrary reasons -- be CEOs, founders, lawyers, or physicians. This is not kind, but anyone teaching in higher ed knows it is true: the cream does not rise toward the Education major. So the people teaching our kids, when we're lucky, are spouses who have decided not to maximize their earning potential (as in the old days) or students who honestly could not hack it in Engineering, Biochem, or even in the traditional English degree. That is partly because of the standardization you describe, which truly innovative and competent people abhor. Finally that culture caught up with higher ed, which is what compelled me to leave.
So there's a real compensation problem in education that has never really changed. There's an innovation problem, which you highlight, an embodiment problem, and lots else.
The thing that really troubles me is that homeschooling is not really an option for someone like me (divorced, a single dad, would need the cooperation of my ex, which isn't happening). The schools here are quite good, on average. And so I'm at peace more or less with that. But in places where the schools are abysmal and not meeting kids' needs, the peer group keeps getting whittled down to those with the fewest means. That doesn't bode well for all kinds of things.
Josh, I'm late to reply (this damned flu has destroyed me), but I hope that doesn't come off as a lack of respect for what you've written. I greatly appreciate the engagement in the discussion.
While I won't disagree with you that public education was designed in many ways as childcare in preparation of being a corporate drone, I am still naive enough to believe that it can and should be more. As you've seen, I'm still grappling with what exactly that more is, stumbling my way towards it like a brownian walk through the bar's parking lot. I too hate the idea of selling my soul for "personal growth" and a paycheck, no matter how large. But I also hate the idea of not being able to support my family, so (in the least insightful turn of phrase ever) it's hard.
I remember when you first highlighted the gendered history of public education. I think most of us know it, even if we've never explicitly made the connection. We know it in who our teachers were, in the way many women were so quick to point out they taught and worked. But I also can't help but think that it doesn't have to be this way going forward. In one post a while ago, you mentioned students needing autonomy, purpose, and mastery. As a result of our gendered history in teaching, we also haven't figured out how to give educators those same three needs. In fact, I'd offer we've destroyed autonomy and mastery, and as a society have then decided to take away purpose in the name of "better outcomes." My experience homeschooling has been one of fear and difficulty, but also off the charts purpose, an uncomfortable level of autonomy, and a lot of trying to master these crazy ideas. I would like to believe if we could offer those three values to our teachers, we'd see a reversal of the history of our educational institutions in short order. And engaged teachers, supported by each other and systems, could drive innovation as much as economic incentives. Maybe naive, but I am ever naively optimistic. You kind of have to be to be a parent some days, right?
To your last point, my initial reaction was to dismiss it out of necessity. I can't solve societal problems when I'm busy enough trying to undo the damage school did to my children. But I don't think that's quite right. As I mentioned this week, I recently read What School Could Be. It gave me hope actually, and I think that hope could speak to many of the challenges you point out. I'm still formulating my thoughts, but I want to write about it more soon.
Thank you for naming this truth that I think others tend to shy away from: "The golden age of public education relied quite heavily on extremely competent women during a time when they could not -- for arbitrary reasons -- be CEOs, founders, lawyers, or physicians. This is not kind, but anyone teaching in higher ed knows it is true: the cream does not rise toward the Education major. So the people teaching our kids, when we're lucky, are spouses who have decided not to maximize their earning potential (as in the old days) or students who honestly could not hack it in Engineering, Biochem, or even in the traditional English degree."
Latham: such an understatement: “If only our education system still believed it.”
Much like Elon Musk (like him or not) catalyzed the big auto manufacturers into the electric car market, so to may you catalyze education reforms - in the long run - while giving your kids a top notch one in the short run.
And for that $17,000 per student, it pains me when I hear that since we actually spend $ per teacher+admin. Maybe if we quoted the burdened labor cost of a teacher at $300,000 - $400,000 year, we’d put more of a spotlight on the issue.
Thank you James. I'd love to help catalyze a conversation around educational reform. I have lots of ideas, getting the word out (and knowing exactly what the right word is), that's the challenge.
I do think it's worth it though. Appreciate your support.
I feel like I’m sitting around that laminate table with you and then experiencing that awkward pause when people see something they don’t want to see… “No one spoke. For one second, two, five…”. So interesting how silence can speak louder than words. “What would a similar [like the Ansari-X] prize look like in education?” This question frames your passion for the subject, calling for all of us to be innovators in education. The question also asks indirectly how all of us as a community should support these endeavours and how it may be an opportunity for us as community members to place some more focus here. “This is the community I feel my children would benefit from. Hell, I’d benefit from it.” I definitely hear you on that. One step at a time on this journey. The potential you describe is exciting. Nice piece, Latham.
Thank you Mark. This piece wouldn't be half as correct and well thought out if it weren't for your help. Thank you for everything here.
I love the community call you bring up. It's hard enough to find community these days, much less around a subject like education which I think many parents feel burnt and tired talking about. But I hope calls like these offer another way to reinvigorate those communities. At least that's the dream.
Dear Latham, What you have written here is so important --- and far from being "selfish," I think it is a clarion call for education reform that would benefit all children. I'd love for this piece to be read and discussed in every School of Education across the country. We CAN do so many things, if we put our hearts, minds, and resources into it. In this country, we have never invested in children as we should. I recall a study from the 1990s or early 2000s conducted by the Federal Reserve of Minneapolis showing that every dollar invested in high quality early education programs had a 13% return on investment for a wide array of child outcomes. I am restacking your piece so that it is at least seen by some of the folks who read my Substack. What you are doing is so hard ... but so rewarding. Cheering you on! Hal
Let me just say how blown away I am by your comment. In the best of all ways. I was too sick to respond last week, but the dream of having this piece read and discussed in Schools of Education would be amazing. We have so much potential, but we also owe it to each other to understand the responsibility that comes with that potential. Not to investors, but to children. To our future.
Latham, I just finished drafting a similar call-to-arms (to be released in the next few days), and then read this article. There's great harmony in the things we're saying and I love your posture.
I'm working at the high school level but have also taught primary school. I got frustrated being a part of the madness, so I began building out solutions in my way. I think it might be interesting to put our heads together.
This will sound crazy, but I was reading this and thinking 'hmm I know a guy who is homeschooling his kids and building a plane. Wonder if he'd like to read this?' then I looked at the blog name haha
Latham, I'm sorry this has been your experience in the education system with your son. I can relate, and I struggle every.single.year with what to do for the education of my two daughters (ages 11 & 9 - one with dyslexia). I'm grateful for your willingness to explore the subject on Substack, and I am cheering you on in your pursuit of progress.
Kristin, Thank you so much for subscribing and being here. It's an honor to have you on this journey. We're going through the struggle again with my 6 year old, and I'm 99% sure I'll bring her home at the end of this year. But I also recognize the implications of that decision are...complicated. I hope you find the best possible solution for your daughters. I'd love to hear more about them if you're ever open to sharing.
As I mentioned in my note, feel free to reach out if I can ever be a resource.
Wow, this is wonderful. Your bite-sized portraits of the architects behind modern education are compelling me to read further about them. And I feel each of your points for how a “Cambrian explosion” of educational experiments might happen could be developed into serious proposals.
I’m not sure if you’ll totally agree here but it strikes me that this essay houses two different visions for assessing our schools - each premised on a different fundamental purpose of education.
On one side is a more human-centered, even spiritual, vision that resists quantification: “in the service of human freedom,” Mihaly’s research on happiness and peak experiences, nurturing the light in your son’s brown eyes.
On the other seems to be a more rigid, hierarchical vision that draws authority from existing systems of measurement, all pegged to a conventional, largely material, definition of success: PISA scores, standardized testing, Ivy League acceptance rates, graduates’ income levels.
I’ve found these that these two poles are not easily reconciled, though various scholars have tried. (Danielle Allen’s “Education and Equality” lectures come to mind.)
Currently, my own view approximates something I once heard articulated by Samuel Bowles (author of Schooling in Capitalist America): it is unrealistic and perhaps impossible to expect equality and humanity from our schools when we have a fundamentally unequal economy and society.
I hope that none of this subtracts from the deeply meaningful and critical mission of your journey, which I applaud and intend to follow 👏👏
When I think of the problems that need to be overcome, it's a legal and cultural battle, and less of an innovative one.
1) Legalize kids doing everything (especially work). Any child can work, and there should be ready made standardized contracts and the like that make this easy for an employer to do.
2) Cultural: The standard family situation disincentives parents from investing in their children. They don't share a financial pot together, and kids move away from their parents quickly. If we had a more tribal family structure, like the mythical mafia, parents would invest in the children as an asset. (I know people think they already invest in their kids, but it's simply not true when you look at how they spend their time, and the accountability they place on the institutions they allow their children to be in.)
I think this is fertile enough grounds for the innovation that naturally comes up. I think schools will need to empty out and be destroyed- I can't imagine any reform doing anything of value. It's too big to move.
Some of this may be country specific, but I'm not sure that's true in the US. There are legal hurdles, but they vary by state. I live in MT, and it was uncomfortably easy to declare that I was homeschooling. The hardest part was negotiating with the school that had failed him to be released from the enrollment contract. From a cultural standpoint, as I mentioned when we talked, that seems to depend on just how far down the rabbit hole you mean when you discuss culture.
To reply to your specific points:
1. I do believe kids are capable of work, but I am also aware how much modern work is bullshit. And when you pair bullshit with an unbalanced power relationship, I think we need to strongly consider how we make it work. For my part, it's why I think a strong apprenticeship model could be part of school, but shouldn't necessarily replace education. Lots to think about though.
2. I'm the wrong person to ask. I obviously have gone off the deep end with my kids, so 🤷♂️. That being said, I'm not sure a reformed family culture really solves the problem organically. Innovation requires more than simply cultural values, it requires entire structures dedicated to seeing it flourish. And I believe we can do it in the shells of school, but we need a serious discussion about what our schools are and should be. Maybe some of my concern has to do with how many children would simply be left without any option if we completely destroyed schools.
I haven't read all the comments yet, so please forgive any redundancy, but a few points to add.
Theodore Sizer and others have pointed out that public education was largely built to prepare students for labor while keeping them out of the labor force. To some extent, the idea of child care with preparation to be corporate drones hasn't changed a great deal over the years (this is partly what that principal is talking about). The revolt that you feel against public education is largely the revolt that I've felt against pivoting to industry after leaving higher ed. I don't want to be convincing myself all day every day to do things I actually hate and then brightsiding that as productivity or growth. No way.
You mention the generosity of underpaid teachers. The golden age of public education relied quite heavily on extremely competent women during a time when they could not -- for arbitrary reasons -- be CEOs, founders, lawyers, or physicians. This is not kind, but anyone teaching in higher ed knows it is true: the cream does not rise toward the Education major. So the people teaching our kids, when we're lucky, are spouses who have decided not to maximize their earning potential (as in the old days) or students who honestly could not hack it in Engineering, Biochem, or even in the traditional English degree. That is partly because of the standardization you describe, which truly innovative and competent people abhor. Finally that culture caught up with higher ed, which is what compelled me to leave.
So there's a real compensation problem in education that has never really changed. There's an innovation problem, which you highlight, an embodiment problem, and lots else.
The thing that really troubles me is that homeschooling is not really an option for someone like me (divorced, a single dad, would need the cooperation of my ex, which isn't happening). The schools here are quite good, on average. And so I'm at peace more or less with that. But in places where the schools are abysmal and not meeting kids' needs, the peer group keeps getting whittled down to those with the fewest means. That doesn't bode well for all kinds of things.
Josh, I'm late to reply (this damned flu has destroyed me), but I hope that doesn't come off as a lack of respect for what you've written. I greatly appreciate the engagement in the discussion.
While I won't disagree with you that public education was designed in many ways as childcare in preparation of being a corporate drone, I am still naive enough to believe that it can and should be more. As you've seen, I'm still grappling with what exactly that more is, stumbling my way towards it like a brownian walk through the bar's parking lot. I too hate the idea of selling my soul for "personal growth" and a paycheck, no matter how large. But I also hate the idea of not being able to support my family, so (in the least insightful turn of phrase ever) it's hard.
I remember when you first highlighted the gendered history of public education. I think most of us know it, even if we've never explicitly made the connection. We know it in who our teachers were, in the way many women were so quick to point out they taught and worked. But I also can't help but think that it doesn't have to be this way going forward. In one post a while ago, you mentioned students needing autonomy, purpose, and mastery. As a result of our gendered history in teaching, we also haven't figured out how to give educators those same three needs. In fact, I'd offer we've destroyed autonomy and mastery, and as a society have then decided to take away purpose in the name of "better outcomes." My experience homeschooling has been one of fear and difficulty, but also off the charts purpose, an uncomfortable level of autonomy, and a lot of trying to master these crazy ideas. I would like to believe if we could offer those three values to our teachers, we'd see a reversal of the history of our educational institutions in short order. And engaged teachers, supported by each other and systems, could drive innovation as much as economic incentives. Maybe naive, but I am ever naively optimistic. You kind of have to be to be a parent some days, right?
To your last point, my initial reaction was to dismiss it out of necessity. I can't solve societal problems when I'm busy enough trying to undo the damage school did to my children. But I don't think that's quite right. As I mentioned this week, I recently read What School Could Be. It gave me hope actually, and I think that hope could speak to many of the challenges you point out. I'm still formulating my thoughts, but I want to write about it more soon.
Thank you for naming this truth that I think others tend to shy away from: "The golden age of public education relied quite heavily on extremely competent women during a time when they could not -- for arbitrary reasons -- be CEOs, founders, lawyers, or physicians. This is not kind, but anyone teaching in higher ed knows it is true: the cream does not rise toward the Education major. So the people teaching our kids, when we're lucky, are spouses who have decided not to maximize their earning potential (as in the old days) or students who honestly could not hack it in Engineering, Biochem, or even in the traditional English degree."
Latham: such an understatement: “If only our education system still believed it.”
Much like Elon Musk (like him or not) catalyzed the big auto manufacturers into the electric car market, so to may you catalyze education reforms - in the long run - while giving your kids a top notch one in the short run.
And for that $17,000 per student, it pains me when I hear that since we actually spend $ per teacher+admin. Maybe if we quoted the burdened labor cost of a teacher at $300,000 - $400,000 year, we’d put more of a spotlight on the issue.
Keep up the good, and profound, work!
Thank you James. I'd love to help catalyze a conversation around educational reform. I have lots of ideas, getting the word out (and knowing exactly what the right word is), that's the challenge.
I do think it's worth it though. Appreciate your support.
I feel like I’m sitting around that laminate table with you and then experiencing that awkward pause when people see something they don’t want to see… “No one spoke. For one second, two, five…”. So interesting how silence can speak louder than words. “What would a similar [like the Ansari-X] prize look like in education?” This question frames your passion for the subject, calling for all of us to be innovators in education. The question also asks indirectly how all of us as a community should support these endeavours and how it may be an opportunity for us as community members to place some more focus here. “This is the community I feel my children would benefit from. Hell, I’d benefit from it.” I definitely hear you on that. One step at a time on this journey. The potential you describe is exciting. Nice piece, Latham.
Thank you Mark. This piece wouldn't be half as correct and well thought out if it weren't for your help. Thank you for everything here.
I love the community call you bring up. It's hard enough to find community these days, much less around a subject like education which I think many parents feel burnt and tired talking about. But I hope calls like these offer another way to reinvigorate those communities. At least that's the dream.
Dear Latham, What you have written here is so important --- and far from being "selfish," I think it is a clarion call for education reform that would benefit all children. I'd love for this piece to be read and discussed in every School of Education across the country. We CAN do so many things, if we put our hearts, minds, and resources into it. In this country, we have never invested in children as we should. I recall a study from the 1990s or early 2000s conducted by the Federal Reserve of Minneapolis showing that every dollar invested in high quality early education programs had a 13% return on investment for a wide array of child outcomes. I am restacking your piece so that it is at least seen by some of the folks who read my Substack. What you are doing is so hard ... but so rewarding. Cheering you on! Hal
Dear Hal,
Let me just say how blown away I am by your comment. In the best of all ways. I was too sick to respond last week, but the dream of having this piece read and discussed in Schools of Education would be amazing. We have so much potential, but we also owe it to each other to understand the responsibility that comes with that potential. Not to investors, but to children. To our future.
I appreciate you restacking. It's an honor.
Our children are our future, indeed!! I saw you were sick; I hope you're feeling better soon. Stuff is going around!
Latham, I just finished drafting a similar call-to-arms (to be released in the next few days), and then read this article. There's great harmony in the things we're saying and I love your posture.
I'm working at the high school level but have also taught primary school. I got frustrated being a part of the madness, so I began building out solutions in my way. I think it might be interesting to put our heads together.
Ryan, I just sent you a DM. Let's chat
This will sound crazy, but I was reading this and thinking 'hmm I know a guy who is homeschooling his kids and building a plane. Wonder if he'd like to read this?' then I looked at the blog name haha
You made me laugh Ved. Thank you for thinking of me. 🤣
Latham, I'm sorry this has been your experience in the education system with your son. I can relate, and I struggle every.single.year with what to do for the education of my two daughters (ages 11 & 9 - one with dyslexia). I'm grateful for your willingness to explore the subject on Substack, and I am cheering you on in your pursuit of progress.
Kristin, Thank you so much for subscribing and being here. It's an honor to have you on this journey. We're going through the struggle again with my 6 year old, and I'm 99% sure I'll bring her home at the end of this year. But I also recognize the implications of that decision are...complicated. I hope you find the best possible solution for your daughters. I'd love to hear more about them if you're ever open to sharing.
As I mentioned in my note, feel free to reach out if I can ever be a resource.
Wow, this is wonderful. Your bite-sized portraits of the architects behind modern education are compelling me to read further about them. And I feel each of your points for how a “Cambrian explosion” of educational experiments might happen could be developed into serious proposals.
I’m not sure if you’ll totally agree here but it strikes me that this essay houses two different visions for assessing our schools - each premised on a different fundamental purpose of education.
On one side is a more human-centered, even spiritual, vision that resists quantification: “in the service of human freedom,” Mihaly’s research on happiness and peak experiences, nurturing the light in your son’s brown eyes.
On the other seems to be a more rigid, hierarchical vision that draws authority from existing systems of measurement, all pegged to a conventional, largely material, definition of success: PISA scores, standardized testing, Ivy League acceptance rates, graduates’ income levels.
I’ve found these that these two poles are not easily reconciled, though various scholars have tried. (Danielle Allen’s “Education and Equality” lectures come to mind.)
Currently, my own view approximates something I once heard articulated by Samuel Bowles (author of Schooling in Capitalist America): it is unrealistic and perhaps impossible to expect equality and humanity from our schools when we have a fundamentally unequal economy and society.
I hope that none of this subtracts from the deeply meaningful and critical mission of your journey, which I applaud and intend to follow 👏👏
When I think of the problems that need to be overcome, it's a legal and cultural battle, and less of an innovative one.
1) Legalize kids doing everything (especially work). Any child can work, and there should be ready made standardized contracts and the like that make this easy for an employer to do.
2) Cultural: The standard family situation disincentives parents from investing in their children. They don't share a financial pot together, and kids move away from their parents quickly. If we had a more tribal family structure, like the mythical mafia, parents would invest in the children as an asset. (I know people think they already invest in their kids, but it's simply not true when you look at how they spend their time, and the accountability they place on the institutions they allow their children to be in.)
I think this is fertile enough grounds for the innovation that naturally comes up. I think schools will need to empty out and be destroyed- I can't imagine any reform doing anything of value. It's too big to move.
Some of this may be country specific, but I'm not sure that's true in the US. There are legal hurdles, but they vary by state. I live in MT, and it was uncomfortably easy to declare that I was homeschooling. The hardest part was negotiating with the school that had failed him to be released from the enrollment contract. From a cultural standpoint, as I mentioned when we talked, that seems to depend on just how far down the rabbit hole you mean when you discuss culture.
To reply to your specific points:
1. I do believe kids are capable of work, but I am also aware how much modern work is bullshit. And when you pair bullshit with an unbalanced power relationship, I think we need to strongly consider how we make it work. For my part, it's why I think a strong apprenticeship model could be part of school, but shouldn't necessarily replace education. Lots to think about though.
2. I'm the wrong person to ask. I obviously have gone off the deep end with my kids, so 🤷♂️. That being said, I'm not sure a reformed family culture really solves the problem organically. Innovation requires more than simply cultural values, it requires entire structures dedicated to seeing it flourish. And I believe we can do it in the shells of school, but we need a serious discussion about what our schools are and should be. Maybe some of my concern has to do with how many children would simply be left without any option if we completely destroyed schools.